Type up your response and post it here as a comment. Start a discussion: Leave comments for at least two other students. In your comments, indicate who your are talking to ("@So-andso: ..."), and offer comments that add depth to the discussion (i.e., not just "Nice job!" or "I like it!").
Revisit Plato's Allegory of the Cave. In this allegory, Socrates suggests that there as an absolute truth in ideas, which exists above objects and representations. Do you agree with this concept? Is there such a thing as absolute truth? Where can it be found? What implications does this have for visual art?
Type up your response and post it here as a comment. Start a discussion: Leave comments for at least two other students. In your comments, indicate who your are talking to ("@So-andso: ..."), and offer comments that add depth to the discussion (i.e., not just "Nice job!" or "I like it!"). 10 Points (5 for first post, 5 for 2 response comments) First post due by Mon 9/19, Respons
75 Comments
Amelia
9/17/2011 12:35:35 am
I agree with the concept and in regards to there being an 'absolute truth', I believe there is. Truth refers to the conformed idea of reality or a statement that is accepted as true. People determine truth among people and without an absolute truth, you simply have situational ethics. If there is no universal or absolute truth, there is no reality but a chaotic one. If there was no absolute truth, we wouldn't know whether we could stand or sit in one place as the law of gravity would not be absolute to us. Of course absolute truth is within all of us, the conscience and the superego decide our moral thoughts and actions. An idea is a truth that is obtained only through knowledge, otherwise it is not true. The projection from the perspective of another individual, or the representation, will contain opinion and error as do all things that are within the realm of appearance. Art is the action of interpreting what the world offers and producing a variation based on one's own inclinations. The idea that the artist based their interpretation off of, is the idea. The work of art itself, is the representation or object of the idea.
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Andrew deJong
9/17/2011 02:06:57 am
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Katherine Zeng
9/17/2011 06:57:01 am
The idea of "Absolute Truth" that Plato believed in strongly is pretty general and a bit faulty. As I understood his argument, he thought that the Absolute
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Katherine Zeng
9/17/2011 07:20:52 am
To Amelia- You have a very good argument; however, it doesn't really explain some occurrences in the world today and ancient times. If there is an "Absolute Truth" which everyone can acquire and share, such as important political facts, how come there are so many misunderstandings between different cultures? Sometimes the misunderstandings grow and swell into rivalry and fatal wars, occasionally leading to chaos.
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Katherine Zeng
9/17/2011 07:28:29 am
To Andrew deJong- I think that I will have to agree with you the most. The chained prisoners accept the shadows as the "Absolute Truth" because they know nothing more and have seen nothing more. I think that Plato was confusing opinions and facts. In a way, his own theory is an opinion and cannot be regarded as a truth.
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Jane Barnett
9/17/2011 07:47:06 am
To be honest, I'm not totally sure how I feel about this prompt, or if I totally understand the message. But what I'm getting it out of it seems kinda sad and hopeless.
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Jane Barnett
9/17/2011 07:49:15 am
@Andrew deJong Ok, I REALLY like what you said, it makes me feel better. :) I was wondering if there is only one truth to everything, and if the rest of the people's opinions are wrong. But you said there are MANY truths, and we all have our own truths. I think that sounds very reasonable.
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Jane Barnett
9/17/2011 07:53:48 am
@Katherine Zeng I like how you disagree with Plato. At first I don't want to disagree with him because he is Plato and pretty wise and old and stuff. But I don't think he was getting it right! Some truths are found outside of yourself, by going outside of the cave. And some are inside.
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Amelia
9/17/2011 10:16:55 am
@Katherine Absolute truth would not be as complex as "political facts", it would be basic logic such as the law of gravity. An absolute truth can be ignored by the individual if they chose to do so, I suppose. The results of war and fatality would not be directly linked to absolute truth, but rather the people's interpretation and willingness to give regard to the truth. The conscience can be overwhelmed by greed and power, thus straying the motivation away from morals and truth.
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Amelia
9/17/2011 10:24:04 am
@Jane I like how you gave an example using religion and god. Varies religions would be the interpretations and representations of an idea, perhaps that idea would be vaguely of a higher power or "god".
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Hanna Davison
9/17/2011 11:35:21 am
I've been staring at this screen for 20 minutes arguing with myself whether or not there's an absolute truth. I'll be honest. Like Jane, I'm not sure if I really understand. If there's one absolute truth, that means that there can be no other truths that are complete in its entirety. If there is no absolute truth, that means that there are multiple incomplete to varying degrees truths, but nothing complete or "absolute". Hmmm. An absolute truth. It has a nice ring to it. I think that everybody has there own absolute truths. I don't know about an idea being an absolute truth, but it holds to reason with me. Of course, my reasoning has been known to make no sense whatsoever. It's actually something that I kinda wonder about. My belief is that no two people see the world in the exact same way, through senses and morally. If that's true, then it's not hard to accept that everybody may hold a different "truth" about an object, and that the idea may be the most pure form.
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Hanna Davison
9/17/2011 11:50:30 am
Addition:
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Hanna D
9/17/2011 01:09:08 pm
@ Andrew
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Hanna
9/17/2011 01:13:38 pm
@Katherine
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Anna Baynes
9/18/2011 02:19:45 am
I agree with this concept because there is no absolute truth for everyone. The truth for some people may be different than the truth for other people because everyone has had different experiences and a different idea of how things should be. The absolute truth is within each individual and their understanding. In visual art if you just see a picture of something that is a sculpture and has depth you may not get the complete feel for it. If you see the artwork in person you may be able to understand more about it and the reason why it may have been created. In visual art people may have different perceptions of the same piece based their prior experiences.
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Anna Baynes
9/18/2011 02:33:22 am
To Katherine
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Maggie Respass
9/18/2011 09:01:52 am
The concept itself is very complex and hard for one to determine the meaning of. However, I believe that there is a such thing as 'absolute truth.' If there was no such things as 'absolute truth' many of the things around us, would not seem as real as they should. I believe that people determine 'absolute truth' from the truth of others. If people didn't show the truth to others then there would be no such thing as truth, let alone an 'absolute truth.' However, this concept isn't the same for everyone. This is because not everyone has the same meaning of 'absolute truth' because everyone interprets the meaning of truth differently. Think of it this way: if everyone were to create a visual expression of what they thought was truth and then put them all together, it would be a blur because not everyone's interpretation of truth is different. This can be found in different types of art. For example there is impressionists, realists, prehistoric art and much more. The 'absolute truth' for these artists were different. That's why each style is different. This can also be applied to religions. Every religion has its different truths, that is why there are so many different religions. 'Absolute truth' could exist in one's mind or it could be found in text that reveals the absolute truth. There isn't just one set meaning and place for it because it can't be expressed by everything and everyone in the same way.
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Maggie Respass
9/18/2011 09:04:31 am
To Katherine Zeng:
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Maggie Respass
9/18/2011 09:07:17 am
To Anna Baynes:
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Anna
9/18/2011 09:41:32 am
So Plato is saying that physical objects are too specific. Going back to the chair example presented in class, the idea of the chair is more vague and general and complete than a physical chair where size and shape are all specified. Thus, the idea of a chair is the absolute truth rather than a tangible chair. (Is that right? I’m not sure about anything I have said or will say.)
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Anna
9/18/2011 10:04:39 am
@Andrew
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Julian Wilson
9/18/2011 10:27:24 am
I believe there is no absolute truth, because it all depends on how each person interprets things. Even what we perceive as truth often changes as our knowledge grows. We used to take it as the truth that the sun orbited the earth, but now we accept that the truth is that the earth orbits the sun. I think that ideas are truer than objects or representations, but even ideas can be contradictory. Our ideas about things change and develop over time, and a person’s idea about what something is can be incorrect, or different from other peoples. You also can’t really decide whose idea gets to be “right” and whose in contrast is “wrong”. In Socrates’ example, the person who sees only shadows in the cave thinks that is the truth of the world, while the person who ascends the staircase sees the world and believes that to be the new truth and no longer sees the shadows as true. However, who gets to say that what we perceive as the “real world” is true and we aren’t also just seeing shadows, and therefore our ideas also being of shadows. In visual art I think this means that the only real truth is a person staying true to their own self and their interpretation of their own ideas and how they see the world around them. I think that absolute truth is different for each person based on how they interpret the world.
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Evy
9/18/2011 10:38:38 am
I don't really understand what Socrates is saying. I think there maybe an absolute truth that is above everything else. I think an object can change depending on your perspective but an absolute truth could never change.
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Anna
9/18/2011 11:16:59 am
@Katherine
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Isaac Chelminski
9/19/2011 02:47:01 am
It was difficult understanding what Plato means when he talks about "absolute truth". I don't think there is absolute truth in anything since our knowledge is constantly changing and evolving. As we learn more our ideas take on different forms as we gain new perspective. It is also impossible for one person to judge a different persons idea wrong. Nothing is absolute in Visual Art its all about the person and their interpretation of the work. The persons next to you their interpretation of a work could differ drastically from yours.
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Juliana Ritter
9/19/2011 08:49:53 am
I don’t completely believe in the existence of an absolute truth, but I do believe that there is truth in ideas. In English class we just finished reading about the Transcendentalist movement, and I was inspired by Ralph Waldo Emerson’s idea that we need to doubt the ideas and teachings of other people and that truth is in what we believe in. I don’t think there is an absolute truth because truth varies from person to person. The idea of an absolute truth gets complicated when referring to art because there is the absolute truth that the artist is trying to portray, and the truth that someone gets from an artwork. I don’t think that the absolute truth that one gets from the art work is false. When it comes to visual art it gets complicated to define absolute truth.
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Juliana Ritter
9/19/2011 08:56:16 am
@Julian
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Gabe Foster
9/19/2011 09:48:27 am
I believe there is such a thing as an absolute truth but I think it can be interpreted differently. The prisoners had a different idea of an absolute truth than the one who was released but I don't think that means their view of the world was wrong. I guess an absolute truth exists but is dependent on a persons situation and perspective.
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Annie Wang
9/19/2011 10:56:15 am
I believe Absolute Truth exists, but not in the sense that we can know it. The interpretation of it is the closest we can get to it. But an interpretation of Absolute Truth ceases to be Absolute Truth, as interpretation is flawed, and draws away from the purity of what is unchangeable and uncompromising. Were Absolute truth to exist, then it must exist outside of the realm of what we know to be existence and consciousness, because any attempt to explain it with the limited sphere of language and the filter of human thought detracts from the absolute nature of such a concept. If you were to imagine the idea of a chair, I would guess that you cannot simply know the absolute truth that is a chair. You will think of examples, perhaps imagine a chair that you use in your life, or you will think of a chair's properties;in essence, you default to something you can relate to. I do not believe we can relate to Absolute Truth. Thus, it must exist outside what we know.
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Annie Linker
9/19/2011 11:33:15 am
Absolute truth is a hard concept to understand because it doesn't really have a specific definition or example. I think that there is some absolute truth and meaning above all objects and ideas but the truth can change depending on the person who is interpreting it. Most things have a purpose, but the truth and meaning of something has a lot to do with who is looking at it. After people have viewed something in a different perspective the truth of the objects purpose might change. No one really knows what the absolute truth of something is but everyone has their own detailed opinion about it. In the Allegory of the Cave the prisoner’s perspective of the shadows and the real world change when opened up to new experiences like stepping out of the cave. This is similar to life when people’s opinions change due to changes in their life.
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Annie
9/19/2011 11:34:58 am
@Isaac
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Madison Gunning
9/19/2011 12:17:35 pm
Despite the beliefs of most people, I do not believe in an absolute truth. I believe the object, representation, and idea are all present but I don't think the idea can ever be absolute. A dictionary definition should be able to what something is and what it is and that's how we have interpretation. You may say " Then what is the central idea in which we interpret"? I think that when two people are given the central idea there is no way they think the same way. If we had an absolute truth then we wouldn't have controversy over social issues and such. They would just be given.
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Emma Williams
9/19/2011 12:19:49 pm
I believe that there is an ‘absolute truth’. After seeing the images of the idea ‘chair’, you can tell that there is one main idea, but the artist takes the idea of chair and creates his own work of art. Artist can create many works of art from one idea and they will all be different, yet the same in a way. Of course, we as humans, have various interpretations of ‘absolute truth’, so the differences in artists’ works are expected. If all interpretations of ‘absolute truth’ were the same, there would be no ‘absolute truth’, there would just be truth. These various interpretations are important. They are the reason why there are so many cultures, religions, and works of are. We’re able to compare and contrast these subjects constantly, because they’re so different. However, how can we define that ‘absolute truth’ and how do we know it is actually the ‘absolute truth’? I think we all have our own ‘absolute truths’. Just as I said earlier about how we all interpret ideas differently, we all have our own ‘absolute truths’ in a way. Whatever we believe to be true is, in our opinion, true. And after all, isn’t that all that matters? Whatever is true to the artist, that is how (s)he will depict or express it, whether or not it’s the same way the viewers interpret the piece of art. You can’t make someone have the same ‘absolute truth’ as you. That is why what was real to the prisoners was just as real to the released prisoner, even though their interpretations were completely different.
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Madison Gunning
9/19/2011 12:24:23 pm
@Annie Linker
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Madison Gunning
9/19/2011 12:30:15 pm
@Jane Barnett
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Sophia Anopa
9/19/2011 01:16:26 pm
I agree with the existence of "absolute truths", but I think there are vaguely two categories of such truths. The first one would be "absolute truths" that apply and are accepted by a large amount of people, or can be scientifically proven, such as various scientific laws. Even if a person does not accept a law, it is true if it can be proven. The other category would be individual "absolute truths" which vary with individual beliefs, perceptions, etc. These truths are what makes cultures and religions different from each other. These make artists' works' unique, unless, of course, they are made to work in one style. Since each artist has their own interpretation, their own absolute truth, even when asked to create a work of art on the same subject, the results will be very individual.
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Erin Binnie
9/19/2011 01:33:04 pm
I agree with the idea of an 'absolute truth'. It makes sense to me that there is a basic idea of something that is then interpreted into many forms. I don't know if there's necessarily a right or wrong "interpretation" of the idea, because it is just that, an interpretation. But I think that there could be a more common idea that people are used to, and therefore accept as the standard idea. I like that there are different interpretations because it creates a variety of ideas and cultures. There can't be right thing, or one right idea, culture or religion. They all are right, but in different ways. The prisoners in the cave had their own idea of these people and animals, but it wasn't wrong, it was just a different idea of what they were. But they were essentially the same thing, and that's what matter.
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Samantha Joy Straughan
9/19/2011 01:36:57 pm
When it comes to such a controversial and opinion-driven topic such as "absolute truth" it is hard to take a side. On one hand, in an ideal world there would be an answer behind everything and in the end one would find said truth. Unfortunately, a majority of the time humans are left wondering, confused, and clueless. Although, in my personal opinion, I think that eventually one does find an "absolute truth" potentially without even noticing. It's one of those things that just comes to you without looking for it. It can be found in daily life, but is not limited too anything beyond that, like a life long goal or ambition. When it comes to visual art though, I feel like there is an intent implying there is always a message. Behind this message, hopefully is a form of "absolute truth" that can be viewed by yourself and the artist. This truth can mean the same as others or can be different depending on how you view it, but in the end there is a truth to you which is what counts.
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Katelyn Layden
9/19/2011 01:45:29 pm
I don't know if I believe in "absolute truth" or not because if there was an absolute truth then there wouldn't be any variety in anything in life. Everything would be a given and there wouldn't be any different or opposing thoughts on anything. If there was an "absolute truth," everyone would think and know the same things, and because it is known as the "absolute truth" no one would question anything and I don't think that as humans we would progress as much as we have so far. At the same time, I think that there is somewhat of an "absolute truth" because everyone has the same ideas or thoughts of what things are or what things do. But still, everyone has different views, making the idea of an "absolute truth" vague. Also, if there wasn't an "absolute truth," it would be very difficult for us humans to understand one another and figure out what we were talking about or trying to tell each other. Without and "absolute truth," no one would be able to completely understand what the other person was talking about because no one would or could be completely certain as to what the other is talking about. So to answer the question, "is there an 'absolute truth'?" my answer is yes and no. Yes because how else would we know what we were talking about? And no because the human race has progressed so much by experimenting with what is thought to be true and if there was an "absolute truth," this most likely would not have happened.
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Madeleine Popkin
9/20/2011 02:41:15 am
I believe that there is more than one "truth". If there was only one truth then people would only be able to have one opinion and there would never be any progress. I don't want to go as far as to say that there is no truth, but rather i believe that everything is a truth. Whether or not we believe the it is what determines its importance. This affects art because everything is art and its importance is determined by what we think of it. People have different opinions and that is how we cultivate ideas which can become an accepted fact, but they are always a truth from the minute they are thought up.
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Madekeine Popkin
9/20/2011 02:46:00 am
@ Annie Linker
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Madeleine Popkin
9/20/2011 02:48:43 am
@ Emma WIlliams
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Madeleine Popkin
9/20/2011 02:52:33 am
more @ Emma Williams
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Erin Binnie
9/20/2011 05:34:40 am
@ Samantha joy Straughan
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Madeleine Popkin
9/20/2011 05:49:13 am
I agree with you that an absolute truth seems false in the sense that there can't be only one idea. Also, there doesn't seem to be any obvious absolute truths today as evidence. There are so many different cultures and religions and ideas, that it seems wrong to have just one be right. Whether it is the correct isn't really the issue, but its whether they believe in it, and is real to them is what matters. I think there could potentially be an absolute truth as a philosphy, but I am undecided about whether it could exist in the real world
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Jefferson Murray
9/20/2011 09:31:18 am
I agree with Socrates idea that the 'absolute truth' comes from ideas and not from the visual context.
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Jefferson
9/20/2011 09:36:43 am
@Katelyn
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Jefferson
9/20/2011 09:44:35 am
@Jane Barnette
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Annie Wang
9/20/2011 09:55:28 am
@Madeleine
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Anna Baynes
9/20/2011 11:48:03 am
To Anna (Zeng- I think)
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eric nunez
9/21/2011 03:19:22 am
@ emma williams
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Erin Binnie
9/21/2011 09:55:26 am
oops, my the second reply was supposed to be @Madeleine Popkin, but instead I wrote the name as Madeleine, so sorry about that... :)
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Juliana Ritter
9/21/2011 10:06:30 am
@ Maggie
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Julian Wilson
9/21/2011 10:13:34 am
@Andrew deJong
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Julian Wilson
9/21/2011 10:17:14 am
@Madeleine Popkin
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Evy Foster
9/21/2011 10:32:42 am
To Maggie Respass
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Evy Foster
9/21/2011 10:38:15 am
@Emma Williams
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Andrew
9/21/2011 12:01:33 pm
@Madison
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Andrew
9/21/2011 12:05:32 pm
@Anna B.
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Annie Linker
9/21/2011 01:19:55 pm
@Emma Williams
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Annie Linker
9/21/2011 01:20:39 pm
@Annie Wang
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Sophia Anopa
9/22/2011 08:15:18 am
@Jane
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Sophia Anopa
9/22/2011 08:46:14 am
@Katherine Zeng
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Gabe Foster
9/22/2011 09:14:35 am
@andrew
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Gabe Foster
9/22/2011 09:19:23 am
@ Jefferson
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Emma Williams
9/22/2011 10:21:10 am
@Amelia
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Emma Williams
9/22/2011 11:03:38 am
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Emma Williams
9/22/2011 11:08:04 am
@Annie Linker
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Katelyn Layden
9/22/2011 12:48:09 pm
@Annie Linker
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Samantha Joy Straughan
9/22/2011 01:45:59 pm
@Madeleine
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Samantha Joy Straughan
9/22/2011 01:58:43 pm
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Jack Watson
9/25/2011 07:05:54 am
Hi folks, here is some feedback about your discussion so far. First of all, great work blending your observations and opinions into a very entertaining and informative discussion. A few points I'd like to make overall: Most of you zeroed in on the prompt about absolute truth, and many of you did not connect it clearly to visual art, or Plato's allegory of the cave. Also, there are a number of comments about Plato's "vagueness" regarding the notion of absolute truth, which led to criticisms of his philosophy. Keep in mind, the allegory of the cave is just one small excerpt from a large text (The Republic), which itself is just one text in his larger body of work. It is unlikely you know enough about his teachings from this text (and my superficial intro to it) to discount his work in this way. Instead of saying it is too vague, consider asking how you could learn more. Now, some feedback...
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Jack Watson
9/25/2011 07:07:04 am
@Isaac: "It is also impossible for one person to judge a different persons idea wrong" Hmm, going back to Julian's flat-earth point above - aren't there some truths that are "truer" than others? It may be difficult or impossible to convince another person that their idea is "wrong", but clearly the released prisoner knew something the prisoners in the cave didn't know.
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Jessie Clay
11/12/2011 11:36:09 pm
When you think about, the idea of an "absolute truth" is rather impossible really. Because what maybe pure to some people, could have a completely different idea to others. The idea of this kind of truth seems great and all, but is it practicle? There are numerous ideas of truth. Each person in the world has their own unique idea and thoughts about an "absolute truth". Therefore isn't the same for everyone. When it comes to art, the idea of one thing emboding "art" isn't very realistic. Once again, the meaning of art is differn't for everyone.
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8/20/2012 07:03:59 pm
http://www.monsterbeatspascherfrance.org/
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